(;FF[4]GM[1]SZ[19]ST[2]CA[UTF-8]AP[SGFC:1.13b]

GN[don VS Weiss]
PB[don]
BR[18k]
PW[Weiss]
WR[15k]
KM[5.5]
DT[2003-01-20]
RE[W+17.50]
TM[50]
OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
RU[Japanese]

C[Hi,
I played W here. But the guy who played B asked that this game be reviewed
by someone with higher level. So, there are more questions from him.
I
only put a few questions here, but I'm more interested in the weakness of
my style of play, or could I have done better in certain moves, etc.

I'm andre, I'll do my best in reviewing your game.
I
made tons of variations.Reviewing for both side requires me to made these
many and long variations. The number of points i mentioned during reviewing
is the points a side got not a difference point. for a difference point,
multiply it by 2.

I'm dave, djna 2k on KGS, 1 dan in the UK. I've
been asked to comment on andre's comments, but I will also say things about
the game. I'll prefix the comments accordingly.

djna C: Andre has
put a great deal of work in here. There's a lot of helpful advice and accurate
comment here. I'm looking at this commentry from the perspective of a teacher.
Do the comments help the pupil? Can they be applied in future? Accuracy alone
isn't enough. I'm glad to say that the answer to these questions is often
"yes".
More detail as we go, and a summary at the end.

djna G: I'm considering three things here:

1).
Tactics. This is the detail we have to get right, and I believe that at least
until one reaches single digit kyu it's where the time-effective study is
done. If you can't read a few moves ahead you will almost certainly not get
any stronger. I always have a reading problem book in my bag and do a few
problems every day.

How do the players do? Generally, about par for
their strengths, but with a few surprising lapses. B does make rather more
errors than W and in the end probably loses for that reason. I'm not sure
why that is, B is certainly too strong to be putting himself into atari.
Time trouble?

2). Theoretic knowledge. Advice such as "corner, side,
centre". Rules for how far to extend from a wall. Natural development from
a shimari. Standard opening patterns. The L group is dead. The various proverbs:
"hane at the head of two stones without thinking".

There's a lot more.
This is short-cut material. Saves having to reinvent everything every game.
I don't advise to study too much of this at once, but I do recommend that
we all should look out for these abstract principles.

How do the players
do? W was either being very experimental in the opening or needs to read
"In the Begining". This brings up an important point I know of very strong
players who get stronger by experimenting and disregarding the "rules". If
you know what you are doing then playing your first move on the 7-6 point
can be made to work. And it's possible that this unconventional approach
is actually a very good tool to get stronger. I do think that is needs to
be based on understanding the rules you ignore.

3). Strategic ideas. Keeping group separatted, Deciding where to invade and how to attack. 

To my mind this is real Go. The rest is just the housework.

I think that both players played reasonably considering their current grades. They made plans and implemented them. 

I do believe that thinking about these strategic ideas is the key to getting really strong.]
;B[dc];W[qd];B[dq]
(;W[fp]TR[oc][od]SQ[ce][de][cf][cn][co][do]C[andre:
I question this move, an empty corner is always a bigger move than an attack
at opponent's opponent's corner but there are some cases when you attack
first enemy's corner but usually it's on a corner near yours such as upper
left corner. This move is better at Squared point (if you insist on attacking
at beginning but black will attack upper right corner at either P16 or P17
depends on his motive.

djna C: Good suggestions for alternative moves.

djna
G: Very unusual. W must be sure why he chooses not to play the open corner
or one of the standard approaches suggested by andre. If he's being deliberatley
experimental then let's see him follow it up.];B[qp]C[
djna G: B shows appreciation of value of the corner. 

Is
 allowing/encouraging W to play around P4 helping him make sense of his previous
move. How about 4-4 instead? B is likely end up with a low position otherwise.

An
alternative way of thinking. W has approached B's stone. Next he can enclose
B (as happens in the game)  Do we like that? Suppose B plays C5? Now W has
a stone in a position that he almost certainly would not play. I'm quite
inclined to play this way if I'm B in this sort of position.]
;W[co]C[
djna G: W now makes sense of his previous move. W can get a lot of thickness.

But
this move opens up all manner of complex variations. Does W know what happens
after B at D 5? I certainly don't! Notoriously complex taisha joseki is not
for the faint hearted!

W could play D 4 instead which also shoudl yield good thickness but is simpler.]
;B[oc]
(;W[pf]C[andre: White avoids battle and gives black a chance to take upper right corner

djna
C: Trivial point. In my viewer it's not clear that you've provided a variation.
I suggest always flagging variations in the text: 

"Instead of this move W could pincer as shown in the variation"

Substantial
point: B can't really take the whole corner, it's more that the corner is
shared. In fact pincering is as likely to give up more of  the corner!]
;B[oq]LB[md:A]TR[nq]C[andre: Too small! better at O3

djna
C: Under some conditions people play the small shimari, under some they play
the one you suggest. If we think that one is preferable to the other in this
situation then I think we must explain the characteristics on the current
board position that make it more appropriate to play the large shimari.

It
would not have occurred to me to criticise this move for that reason. More
interesting is whether it's right to ignore W so frequently.

djna
G: What sort of result now does B expect if W plays around A? It's essential
that B considered this before tenuki (playing elsewhere).

A very good
principal is to always seek to tenuki - but this implies careful consideration
of the impact if the opponent follows up.

If I were W after this I'd be thinking B has been a little impertinent, and want to press him a little.]
;W[pk]SQ[qk]C[andre:
Better at R9, a move here means that white want to take influence rather
than territory. This does not conform with white's earlier moves

djna
C: I think we need to explain this a lot more. If W is to apply your idea
in his next game what features is he lookng for to decide whether to play
Q9 or R9? And is either of these better than Q10 or R10? That's a large extension.

There's
also the question of whether a play on this side is good at all. If it's
right then we should encourage W by praising a good choice for direction
even if we don't agree with the precise point.

djna G: W has seen
that B can begin to build a framework around the shimari and keeps it under
control. An alternative idea is to keep B's upper side low and begin to build
on the left by appraoching the top left.];B[ce]LB[cj:A]TR[oc]
[cf]C[andre: Again... Tooo Small!!

djna C: I'm not convinced that a different shimari is so much better.

djna G: We're seeing here B's philosophy of building small secure territories.

The
effect is that B has spent 4 moves in the two shimaris and has taken 20 points
of territory.  This isn't a good rate of return unless there's good coordination
with other stones so that there's serious prospect for growth. 

I think that the urgent move is look after the marked stone.

Otherwise
I prefer an unconventional move such as A because it has some effect on W's
growth as well as threating to grow on a larger scale.];W[ch]
C[
djna G: I feel that W is trying to make a large scale development and that's good.]

(;B[bq]TR[ch]C[don: I feel this is small, any better move?

andre: I included some joseki variations

djna
G:  I think that your feeling is good. All B is doing is making a live group.
That group will get 10 points or less of territory and has *no* potential.
W's next move is almost inevitable. He gets a very strong wall on the out
side - thickness. It's always difficult to evaluate the worth of thickness
but look at it as pure potential.

If B could learn one strategic idea
 from this game it is to value *potential*. Later in the game we'll see B
build territory all on the third line. The problem is that this is very hard
to grow.

Another strategic idea is  that W has two stones that can
be separated as andre shows. Now it gets very complicated - the taisha joseki
is something I have never bothered to study because my brain is too small
- but sometimes we just have to fight and hope we can figure it out. I'd
prefer to start the fight before W gets the marked stone in place, so (if
B thinks the corner stone is worth saving) I'd start the fight instead of
enclosing the upper left corner.

So a second strategic lesson to learn
is that separating the opponent's forces is important. We'll see another
situatioon later where B doesn't do this and he should!];W[do]
C[
djna
G: Yes excellent move. A very important idea in the opening of a game, value
thickness. If your opponent wants to live on a small scale let him, and wall
him in.];B[ep];W[mq]LB[eo:A]C[
djna G: A very bad move! Funny how we often play one good move and then a bad one!

Why
is it bad? Well Look at point A, consider the difference between a B and
W stone in that position. It's both a question of joining the W stones and
also of the thicknes of that wall. If B plays there he has reduced W's potential
and left W with an isolated stone. 

Then B has a group that is no longer cut off from the centre. 

So
the only way that W can play his move is if it is "kikashi" a forcing move
somewhere else on the board that B must answer or suffer a huge loss. B B's
stones in the bottom right are very strong. He played the small shimari,
so he is very strong.

djna C: andre correctly points out a plausible continuation.]

(;B[fr]C[andre:
This move is bad, black should try going out to centre before trying to secure
territory coz, black has bad shape here.

djna C: Yes exactly. 

djna
G: B is playing as though he is the one under threat here. Set up the board,
put a stone on E5 instead and say "I'm strong, W will suffer" several times
;-) Cultivate the joy of cutting your opponent into tiny pieces.]
;W[gq]C[
djna
G: ??? W wants to be cut? Unless W has a response to E5 that I can't see
he should play E5. Join stones together is an important strategic concept.]
;B[kc]LB[gd:C][hd:B][ke:A]TR[ld]C[
djna G: Now this move is wrong for two reasons.

1).
B has an opportunity to separate W at E5. This is huge. At the very least
it's sente, W must reply. But I think it's also just strategically so important
to separate W .

2). It lacks potential. It's a bit too far from the shimari and also not connected to the stone in the upper right. 

To evaluate this move. ask "where can B play next to build the framework?"

A: too far from the shimari. Easy invade.
B: doesn't secure terrritory, W can play C or similar
C: same again. W can play B

Also
B is getting a very low position all round the board. Third line moves don't
make enough. Theres a chance that W pay along the top of B and make a large
framework on the right. If I were to play up there I think the marked point
is the one.];W[eo]C[
djna G: yes, important move. W gets  to have a lot of power]
;B[qm]TR[eh]C[
djna
G: B has very strange shape in the bottom left., but I think B is right to
leave it. If G2 is sente for W then Id play there, but (to my great surprise)
it looks like B can ignore another W move against that corner.

The big question is where B should play. The move played is a very small extension. There should be somewhere bigger 

W
is threatening to build on the left. B wants to build at the top. So perhaps
E 12 might work? There's astrong possibility ob W getting a large territory
there unless B acts soon.];W[ql];B[qb];W[gr];B[fq];W[dp];B[gc]
C[don: i thought i already secure the top here


djna
G: well it requires qutie careful analysis to be sure B is alive in the bottom
left. It's always nice when the opponent's supposedly forcing move isn't
. And I think the tenuki is good. However When W takes that E4 stone (Surely
sente for him) his wall gets very solid and it gets hard to keep that moyo
under control.

The thing to challenge is the idea that B has taken the top and is happy.

1). Third line territory is not usually enough

2).
 W could invade! What answer do you have for J17 or M17? At the moment he
should not invade, because he can grow his territory faster than B, but B
can't count on all that side as territory yet!];W[md];B[nc]
;W[ne];B[mc]TR[qe][re][se][qf][rf][sf][qg][rg][sg][qh][rh][sh]
[si]SQ[ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb]C[
djna G: good sequence for W.  One large territory  emerging

Compare
the two equally marked, pretty secure territories. Now look how much more
W can make with just one more move, B cannot compete with this rate of growth]
;W[id]TR[gc][kc][ke]SQ[id][md][ie]C[andre
This move is an overplay by white, black already has too much strength, white
should play it at J15
Try cutting white's connection at L15

djna C: yes exactly. W has presented a target for attack. 

djna G: better idea is to play E 12 or E13. Grow and make sure B doesn't.

First W should take that E4 stone - that is sente against the corner and ao removes a weakness in W's wall for free.]
;B[fe]SQ[ke]C[andre: Too Small!

djna C: yes! 


djna
G:  I would go further. This is actually one of the worst moves B made! Or
perhaps that's too strong, but if B could see moves like L15 as really big
then his strength would leap up.];W[ic]LB[jd:B][ke:A][ei:C]
C[andre: Overplay! black can chase white and gain nice influence

djna
C: Yes, I'd say this slightly differently. W has given B a weak group to
attack. We don't know whether B will gain influence, or territory, or detroy
W territory. What we don know is that W should now be made to suffer!

djna
G: This is bad because the W group is attackable *and* it cuts apart two
groups that already are alive. Making a weak group if you also make an opponent's
group weak can be ok. 

I would play A, and if B wants to capture the marked stone by playing B then play C and ask B to reduce my territory if he can.]

(;B[if]C[andre:
Wrong direction! black is strong at upper left and white has friends at N16.
This move gives white a chance to escape

djna C: precisely];W[je];B[fj]TR[fe][if][eh][di][ei]CR[ic][id]
[je]C[andre: Black intends to secure territory at centre, white may disrupt his plan in exchange of his left side

djna
C: Not sure that B with this move intends to create territory, he certainly
should not try to do that - the proverb "there is no territory in the centre"
tells us that.

djna G: However the result does keep the W side under
control and perhaps makes ladders work if B tries to continue the attack
on the marked stones. Overall I think that this might be quite a creative
move, so long as B has an answer to the powerful W move andre shows in the
variation. That does seem difficult.

B is now very strong after the
two B stones are in place, so it's matter of finding the right place to exploit
the strength. B's move seems just too far. Perhaps one of the  marked points
is better. 

This is a case where detailed reading (tactics) is very
difficult. The number of possibilities explodes. There's an element of intuition
and guesswork based on lots of experience when I play these kind of moves.]

(;W[dk];B[fh]LB[le:B][jf:A]SQ[ci]C[andre: Nice recovery move

djna G: In terms of connectivity good. Also has potential followups at the marked point.
Big
question is whether it's big enough. Suppose W plays A he both connects and
is mapping out plenty of territory on the right .

I think Black needs to attempt to cut off the three white stones perhaps by playing B.

I't's going to get difficult but without somewhere to get leverage B just loses.]
;W[jb]LB[le:A][jf:B]SQ[md][je]C[andre:
This move is small, black is tring to secure centre territory. White's connection
is weak too

djna C: Yes small, though it could be a *really* clever
way of strengthening that marked connection. For example it does seem to
proected against A. You're right that the seems to be the place to be playing.

djna
G: W should be trying to build rather than destroy, or better still both.
B seems like a good way to build and keep B under control.]
;B[lg]LB[kq:A]C[djna
G: This is an interesting move. Threatens the connection, builds strength
in the middle, glares down at white's right side and even at  A.]
;W[mg]LB[ke:A]C[
djna C:  This seems an odd move.  Is W giving up the four W stones? A seems to work]
;B[jf]C[
djna G: B now seems to commit to making territory in the middle. This is risky unless he he has counted very carefully.]
;W[ke];B[kb]SQ[li]C[andre: Playing at M11 is bigger and white will not tenuki, black can take L18 point later

djna C: yes];W[lc];B[ld];W[lb]SQ[jb][lb][ic][lc][id][je][ke]
C[andre: There is no point in saving M17 stone, K15 group is in danger]
;B[le]
(;W[kd];B[mb];W[lf];B[la];W[me]
(;B[dh]LB[ci:A]TR[li][kj][ik][gl][mo]C[andre:
Black abandons M16 group, actually black can save this group without losing
sente and doing forcing move

djna C: I see this as a positive attitude by B. He is prepared to ignore a threat to capture two stones in order to tenuki.

djna
G: I'd want to play somewhere else though. I've marked the areas of tension
W moves in those sort of places are going to be big. B needs to consider
how to nip those sort of moves in the bud.

A looks better if B wants to play on the left. B should be a little more aggressive.]
;W[cg];B[cj]LB[dj:A]C[andre: Without the existence of B3 stone, this move is an overplay

djna
G: It's very dangerous, and depending upon a barely alive group to help is
not great. I'd play this sort of thing only if I was desparate and if I could
see no other way to make complications.

At present I think the bottom looks like it needs attention.]
;W[di]LB[dj:A]C[
djna G: very dangerous. What happens after B plays A?];B[ei]
;W[dj]C[
djna G: Black just helped W enormously. This just said that C10 was indeed an overplay.]

(;B[fo]TR[cj]C[andre:Instead this move, black can have a nice territory on left side using D10 aji. See variation.

djna C: I'm not sure it really works. B's corner is barely alive.

djna G: I don't think that this move is good for that reason. This isn't a real cut, after W takes B's stone looks isolated.]
;W[eq];B[er];W[cq];B[ep];W[gp];B[cr];W[eq]TR[cq]C[djna G: Doesn't capturing the other W stone live?]

(;B[dr];W[cp];B[hn]C[
djna G: Another tenuki from that group! And correctly.];W[fs]
;B[ao]C[andre: An overplay

Djna C: yes, B needs to look at that B3 stone and see how little support it can give.]
;W[bp];B[br];W[ap]TR[bs]C[
djna
G: W take his entitlement. Here B must look at this position and consider
the impact of a W stone at B1. A Black stone there lives.];B[aq]
;W[es];B[ds];W[bs]
(;B[em]
(;W[dm]C[Weiss: Should I play at G1 instead of D7 here?

Not now, whis point is bigger than killing black's A3 group. but black should save E7 move for later ko fight]

(;B[dl]C[I don't understand black's intention in dong this move then abandons it. This stone may cost him some territory]
;W[cl];B[rl];W[rk];B[rm]
(;W[lc];B[rc];W[rd];B[kk]LB[kg:B][qj:C][kq:D][as:A]TR[nj]C[andre: This move is too early, black has weak shape

djna
G: Yes too early and may not be big enough. As things stand W can play A
and remove B's ko in the corner. So B really needs to get some serious work
done to reduce W before trying to solidify the centre. Especially as B has
weeknesses that andre is refering to , for example B.

Note that W
still has some weankess near C some moves near the marked point are pretty
much forcing and start to make D a very serious threat.];W[jo]
;B[im]
(;W[mj]C[
djna
G: W has done well here. This shows why territory in the centre is not a
good strategic goal. By pushing into the centre in sente W is growing the
side territory.]
(;B[io]
(;W[ip];B[jp];W[jq];B[iq];W[hp]
(;B[cf]LB[mj:A]TR[jp]C[
djna G: The next few moves seem to to turn out badly for B.

I
think two things happen. First B can't really decide on his priorities; he
oscillates between the top left and bottom, but achieves little in either
situation.

Secondly he seems more concerned about patching his own weaknesses that exploiting W's]
;W[bf];B[mo]C[andre: Black intends to make a wall, white should stop him

djna C: but it's a wall of little value. This little area should end up as dame.]
;W[dg]C[taking 6 points but below is larger (12 points or maybe more)]

(;B[np]C[andre: Too early to secure this area, aim for bigger ones

djna C: I'd like to see a suggested alternative];W[lp];B[lo]
;W[ko]C[There goes black's 12 points area]
(;B[om];W[nk];B[nr];W[mr];B[kp]C[Black gives his stone in self atari]
;W[jr]C[
djna G: better to take thetwo W stones, that prevents sente moves on the outside.]
;B[kg]TR[sd][sk]C[
djna G: Big, but there are sente moves to play first.];W[gf]
C[don: ouch, i think G14 is a good move from W, should I have put here instead earlier?

andre: Was it that good ? this is an overplay, let's punish him]

(;B[kj];W[kn];B[li];W[mi];B[fn];W[el];B[jl]
(;W[ll]TR[mf][nf][of][ng][og][pg][hh][ih][jh][kh][nh][oh][ph]
[gi][hi][ii][ji][ki][ni][oi][pi][gj][hj][ij][jj][nj][oj][pj]
[hk][ik][jk]C[andre: Those 2 white groups doesn't need connection, F8 first

djna C: yes, very important comment. 

djna G: Note after that B's centre is only comparable to W's growth on the right.]
;B[be];W[ff];B[bg];W[bh];B[ag];W[ah];B[gl];W[ae]C[Weiss:
Whoops, my hand slipped. But I don't know why B let me go with this mistake
as you will see.

Wanna know why ?have you ever heard a technique called 'snap back'? see variation for a snapback sequence]

(;B[ad];W[af];B[bd];W[he];B[hg];W[hb];B[gb];W[ef]C[Weiss:
I think I should've played at G1 instead of E14. As a result , B group on
the lower left live.

djna G: Yes killing that B group has been the biggest move for B for some time.
However, playing A1 is the killing move, then no ko. If B G1, just throw in at F1.]
;B[gs]C[Weiss: Can I still kill B group on the lower left after he played at G1?]
;W[fs];B[as];W[ar];B[mp];W[lq];B[as];W[hs]SQ[qc][ee][pm]C[This
point is small, you should play elsewhere bigger. There is no point bigger
than black's C1 but he MUST compensate for his live. You can play at P7 for
6 points, E15 for 4 points, S16  for 2 points];B[cs];W[de];B[ed]
;W[dd];B[cc];W[gd];B[fd];W[fm];B[en];W[gn];B[fl];W[go];B[gm]
;W[dn];B[fm];W[pm];B[pn];W[pl];B[nm];W[gg];B[gh];W[eh];B[mh]
;W[nh];B[ha];W[ia];B[ga];W[fc];B[eb];W[hc];B[fb];W[cd];B[sd]
;W[se];B[sk];W[sj];B[lh];W[ng];B[qc];W[sc];B[sb];W[pc];B[pd]
;W[pb];B[od]C[A Mistake!]
(;W[qe];B[pa];W[ra];B[rb];W[sd];B[sl];W[rj];B[fg];W[ej];B[fi]
C[At these moment, black wins by 1.5 moku];W[fk]TR[gk]C[don: i think i should have taken this point before W does.

Just defend it at G9]
(;B[hh];W[gk]C[This is what causes black's defeat];B[hj];W[hl]
;B[hm];W[hk];B[ik];W[gj];B[hi];W[jm];B[il];W[ns];B[os];W[ms]
;B[jc]C[small! many points bigger];W[mn];B[nn];W[ln];B[km];W[jn]
;B[mk];W[lk];B[ml];W[nl];B[mm];W[lm];B[kl];W[lj]C[don: no comment, great moves by W.

WHat's so great about this move ? these 2 white groups does NOT need a connection, what he needs now is more & more points]
;B[ge];W[hf];B[es];W[gs];B[ep];W[hd];B[eg];W[df];B[bc];W[ee]
;B[ec];W[nq];B[or];W[op];B[no];W[pq];B[pp];W[pr];B[oo];W[qn]
;B[rn];W[ps];B[rr]C[s41:
I think he made a mistake here, he should connect at p4, I can't see the
reason why he put the stone there. Can you think otherwise?

He's too tired to see the whole board so he doesn't know that a group is in atari]
;W[op];B[oq];W[or];B[rs];W[op];B[qq];W[oq];B[gi];W[ek];B[dh]
;W[qr];B[ol];W[ok];B[oe];W[of];B[pe];W[ld];B[qf];W[rf];B[eh]
;W[ci]C[1 point less by white];B[eq];W[ni]C[1 point less by white]
;B[kf];W[lb];B[ka];W[rq];B[ja];W[ib];B[in];W[jd];B[ma];W[qo]
;B[ro];W[rp];B[po];W[qs];B[sp];W[ob];B[nb];W[nd];B[oa];W[ij]
;B[ig];W[ki];B[jh];W[ji];B[ii];W[jj];B[kh];W[ho];B[jk];W[jj]
;B[ie]C[dame
points taken by black];C[don: I think I had an advantage in the
beginning, but W played great on my opinion. Can I do any better at any stage
of the game?

Weiss: I think B made at least two mistakes which seem
fatal, had he didn't make those mistakes, would it be harder for me? Ow and
like I said in the beginning, I really appreciate if you can comment on my
style of play.

Thank you.

Andre :
Allright... here's my conclusion

Black
likes tenuki a lot, usually this is because he got his knowledge from replaying
pro's game. He is lack in reading big points. He doesn't recognize any overplay
yet which should give him more & more territory. And black always plays
smaller than he should have.

White likes doing overplay, he is better
than black, and would be better without the overplays. Your reading of Live&Death
problems is about average, and should study more. And your style of play...
your opening rather weird, you intend to take side rather than attacking
corner, this may cause your opponent to play shimari to secure his corner

Both
of you has the potential of getting better, just play and study more. Read
my other reviews for basic principle which I don't include here. And because
both of you still below 14k, try mastering standard opening before using
non basic opening. I recommend mastering San Ren Sei, Mini Chinese, Chinese
& Classic Honinbo Opening. There are many non basic and powerful opening
such as Daigo, Shin Fuseki, Cosmic and you should be able to master them
easier if you have mastered the basic opening.

djna G: As we've already
said, B lost the game in the end because of some surprising errors of reading.
Working Tesji problems will help to improve that "housekeeping" aspect of
the game. I think of more importance is the rather conservative 3rd-line
style of play. B will probably win lots of games like that but will hit a
barrier unless he can develop different approaches. How to do that? Andre's
suggestion of playing standard openings, especially those based around 4-4
points, may help.

W seems to have a rather more adventurous approach
and I think that's to be applauded. I'd suggest dipping into books such as
Attach and Defence to get a flavour for how weak groups can lead to trouble.
W could have been in severe difficulty in this game if B had attacked that
W group. 

djna C: Andre spent a lot of time on this review and made
useful and accurate comments. I think I found a few alternative possibilities
for some of the suggested lines.
I have thre trivial suggestions and one concern.

suggestion
1: always flag variations withe some clue about what they are inetnnded to
show. "W misses a chance to ... see variation" "B can't cut because ... see
variation"

suggestion 2: always comment the end of the variation.
I found in some cases that I diudn't really understand the overall point
of the variation. 

suggestion 3: Don't bother to replicate joseki
variations. The books and web sites do that. It''s enough to suggest a line
or two.

Concern: Overall there were probably more variations than
anyone can absorb. How can these players apply that knowledge? Their reading
is not up to working these things out over the board - in all truth *my*
reading isn't that good -  I'd suggest that you try to draw out specific
lessons and principals. I think we need to focus on things that the players
can apply in the next game. 

And of couse in many places you did that, your comments about the weak group was especially important.

Thanksto the players and Andre for the chance to review this game.]
)
(;B[gk]C[Black should play here, H13 shape doesnot need protection athese moment]
))
(;W[qa];B[rb];W[ra];B[ob];W[pa];B[oa];W[sa];B[lb];W[na]LB[mb:A]
C[N18 group got killed]))
(;B[af];W[bf]))
(;W[fl];B[gl];W[fm];B[en];W[gm];B[gn];W[gk];B[hl];W[gi];B[fi]

(;W[he];B[hf]
(;W[ge];B[gg];W[fk];B[gj];W[hk];B[ij];W[hm];B[il])
(;W[ff];B[ef];W[eg];B[fg];W[ge];B[gg];W[fk];B[gj];W[hk];B[ij]
;W[hj];B[hi];W[ik];B[jj];W[il]
(;B[jm]TR[gl][hl]C[saving G8 group is a mistake]
(;W[hm])
(;W[jk];B[kl];W[hm]))
(;B[hm];W[jm]LB[fn:A]C[A group captured];B[km];W[jn];B[ln];W[kq]
TR[gf]C[G14 is indeed an overplay but because of black didnot punish white, black may lose a group]
)))
(;W[gh]
(;B[he];W[fg])
(;B[gj]C[Better in saving some territory];W[fg];B[hg];W[gg]
;B[hi]
(;W[fk];B[hk])
(;W[hh];B[ih];W[hj];B[fk]
(;W[ii];B[hk]TR[fh][ei][fi][fj][gj][fk]C[these black group saved]
)
(;W[hk];B[ii]SQ[hj][gk][hk]C[These 2 stones got captured by black]
)))
(;B[fk];W[fg]))))
(;B[he]
(;W[ff]C[
djna C: but see the variation, W can do better.];B[eg];W[eh]
;B[ef];W[fg];B[dh]C[andre: a ko fight for some territory

djna C: I don't understand. The ko is irrelevant.])
(;W[be]CR[be];B[bd]TR[gf]CR[bd]C[
djna G: Unless B plays here W takes removes more points in the corner than B takes around the marked stone, but now ...]
;W[df]TR[cd]CR[df]C[
djna G: this threatens the cut];B[cd]CR[cd];W[ff]CR[ff]C[djna G:  and W is out.]
)))
(;B[pl];W[ml];B[qk];W[qj];B[ql];W[rj];B[ok];W[pj];B[nk];W[mk]
;B[nm];W[kg];B[jh];W[kh];B[ki]
(;W[li];B[kj])
(;W[ji];B[kj];W[jg];B[ih];W[ig];B[hg];W[ii];B[hh];W[hf];B[gf]
;W[he];B[lh];W[kf];B[mi];W[mh];B[li];W[ni];B[nj])))
(;B[kp];W[ko];B[lp];W[ml];B[lk];W[mk];B[lm];W[om];B[pl];W[qk]
;B[pm];W[ol];B[on]))
(;B[kp]C[bigger and lots of complication. I don't make variations here, too many.]
))
(;W[lh];B[kh];W[ki];B[jh];W[ip]))
(;B[hp]C[Better this way to help ko fight];W[iq];B[ip];W[jp]
;B[hq];W[hr];B[ir];W[jq];B[gs];W[fs];B[es];W[ar];B[as]))
(;W[lh];B[kh]
(;W[kg];B[jg];W[ki];B[jh]
(;W[li];B[ji]
(;W[pm])
(;W[kj]C[Attacking black while building white's wall];B[jj]

(;W[jm];B[jl];W[km])
(;W[km];B[jl];W[lk];B[om])))
(;W[lj];B[ji];W[ll]))
(;W[ki]
(;B[li];W[kg])
(;B[jh];W[lj];B[jj]
(;W[ml])
(;W[ll])))))
(;W[el];B[fl]C[If black insisted on hane here];W[fn];B[gm];W[fm]
;B[fk])
(;W[pm]C[Bigger]))
(;B[rl];W[rk];B[pl];W[qk];B[rm];W[nk]
(;B[kf];W[lc];B[lh];W[lk];B[kj];W[kk];B[jk];W[jl];B[il];W[jm]
;B[el];W[im];B[ik];W[hm];B[dl];W[cl];B[cm]
(;W[dn];B[ck];W[bl];B[ci];W[bi];B[ek])
(;W[ck];B[dn];W[bm];B[gn];W[io];B[gl]))
(;B[lc];W[kf];B[kg])))
(;W[gs]C[This is what happened if you take G1 point now];B[as]
;W[ar]C[Black may fight to live but white has the advantage. black's A3 group get silenced if white put a stone at A1]
;B[cm]TR[cj]C[D 10 stone is an aji]
(;W[ck];B[as];W[kf];B[kg];W[ar];B[li];W[as];B[cs]
(;W[as];B[ip]C[B4 group is weak];W[ho];B[io];W[iq];B[jq]
(;W[ir];B[kq];W[gn];B[hm];W[gm];B[gl])
(;W[jp];B[kp];W[jo];B[ko];W[jn];B[kq];W[in]))
(;W[ep];B[as];W[jp];B[ip];W[go];B[fn];W[io]))
(;W[as]C[A mistake];B[cs];W[as];B[ck]C[black has control of left side]
)))
(;B[gs];W[fs];B[es];W[ar];B[as]C[Become a ko fight];W[tt];B[tt]
;W[ar];B[tt];W[as];B[cs]
(;W[as];B[hr]C[black still can make live but white can chase black and get nice influence]
;W[hq];B[ir];W[jq]
(;B[iq];W[ip];B[jp];W[jr];B[kq];W[kr];B[kp];W[lr])
(;B[jr];W[hs];B[is];W[kq];B[kr];W[lr];B[ks]
(;W[kf];B[kg];W[mh];B[li])
(;W[lh]
(;B[kf];W[kg];B[lc];W[jg]C[An
exchange but black has about 4 points profitand still has a chance to take
centre area but white has the same chance of taking centre area]
)
(;B[kg];W[kf]C[white still has a weakness here];B[kh];W[li]
))))
(;W[hr];B[as]C[Black live];W[jp]C[In return, white got more territory and has greater chance to attack centre area]
))
(;B[lh];W[kf];B[kg];W[gs];B[as];W[ar];B[em];W[dm];B[as])
(;B[as];W[ar];B[gs];W[fs];B[as];W[hs];B[cs]))
(;B[cp]C[Black group live]))
(;B[ck];W[ci];B[bn]
(;W[bo];B[cl];W[cn]LB[dl:A]C[
djna: This isn't obvious, what about A instead?];B[bm];W[dl]
;B[bi])
(;W[cl];B[bl]
(;W[cm];B[bm];W[bo]
(;B[bj];W[eq];B[er];W[cq];B[ep];W[gp]TR[bq][dq][fq][er][fr]
C[Actually,
a long ko fight may happen, but let's jump into conclusion. What will black
do if white put a stone here so that black cannot escape];B[cr]

(;W[eq];B[cp];W[bp];B[cq])
(;W[cp];B[eq]))
(;B[ao];W[ap];B[bj];W[an];B[am]C[May become a ko fight for connection]
;W[aq];B[br];W[eq];B[er];W[cq];B[dr];W[cr]C[
djna C: This might give B a ko after B4. B4 just kills?];B[cs]
;W[cp];B[ao];W[bs];B[as];W[an]C[
no need for the ko, B4 just kills. But note that A9 takes B's other group's eyes.

W may be just too weak on the outside, but has B really gained by this? One group lived, one group died.]
))
(;W[bj];B[bk];W[bi];B[cm];W[dl];B[bo]))))
(;B[lc];W[kf]C[This point is vital for white];B[kg]C[Black has solid shape on building centre territory]
))
(;W[ka];B[mb];W[la];B[ma];W[ja];B[kd]C[White's K15 group captured, it has no base]
))
(;W[fh];B[hi];W[gf];B[ge];W[hf];B[he];W[ie];B[ke];W[kf];B[ld]
;W[le];B[kd];W[jg];B[ig];W[ih];B[hg]
(;W[hh]C[A Mistake])
(;W[gg];B[hh];W[dj];B[jh];W[ji];B[kh]
(;W[ki];B[ii]
(;W[lh];B[kg];W[jf];B[lf];W[me]C[Bad for white])
(;W[jf];B[lf];W[lg];B[me];W[lh];B[nf];W[mg];B[mf];W[og];B[li]
;W[kg];B[ih];W[jk]))
(;W[ii]C[A
mistake by white];B[kg];W[jf];B[lf];W[me];B[mg]C[The beginning of a complicated
battle,both white and black has 2 weak group but black has the advantage]
))))
(;B[ke];W[if];B[jg];W[hg];B[fh];W[ei];B[hi];W[ih];B[ji];W[jh]
;B[kh];W[kg];B[jf];W[kf];B[je];W[le];B[lf];W[lg];B[lh];W[mg]
;B[ld]
(;W[mf])
(;W[fi];B[me];W[mf];B[nd];W[oe];B[hh];W[ig];B[ii];W[gh];B[gg]
;W[gi];B[fg];W[ki];B[li];W[kj];B[ik];W[nj];B[gk];W[el];B[eq]
;W[go];B[lj];W[kk];B[lk];W[kl];B[lm];W[jn];B[im];W[jm];B[fn]
;W[fo];B[gn];W[om];B[mp];W[lp];B[mo];W[nq];B[oo];W[np];B[no]
;W[op];B[pp];W[pq];B[qq];W[pr];B[pm];W[ol])))
(;B[eo];W[fo];B[en];W[dm];B[kq];W[mo];B[hq];W[fq];B[fn];W[ho]
;B[io];W[in];B[jo];W[hn];B[jn];W[il];B[fl];W[eq]
(;B[cp];W[dp];B[bo];W[bn];B[cr];W[dr];B[cq];W[er]
(;B[ao];W[bm])
(;B[cn];W[dn];B[bm];W[an];B[ao];W[cm]))
(;B[dp];W[ek];B[fk];W[ej];B[fj];W[fi]
(;B[hj]C[Black can seek help to P17 but P17 is not too strong right now to help H10 group]
)
(;B[dn]
(;W[cn];B[cm]
(;W[cl];B[bm];W[bl];B[dl])
(;W[bm];B[cl]
(;W[bl];B[dl];W[el];B[em];W[cj];B[hj]SQ[il][hn][in][fo][ho]
[fp][eq][fq]C[Black treathens white stones])
(;W[dl];B[bl];W[ck];B[bn];W[bk];B[am])))
(;W[cm];B[cn];W[bn];B[bo];W[bm])))))
(;B[do];W[dp];B[ep];W[cp];B[eq];W[eo]
(;B[fo];W[dn];B[en];W[em])
(;B[dn];W[cq];B[fq]
(;W[fo];B[hq];W[el];B[cn];W[cl];B[bo];W[bp];B[bn];W[br];B[dr]
;W[aq];B[dl];W[dk];B[dm];W[fm];B[ck];W[cj];B[bk];W[dj];B[bl]
)
(;W[gp];B[hr];W[cn];B[dm];W[fn];B[cm];W[dr];B[er];W[gq];B[gr]
;W[es];B[fr];W[br];B[ip];W[gl])))
(;B[fq];W[gq];B[ep];W[fr];B[eq];W[gp];B[dn];W[cm];B[cp];W[kq]
))
(;W[jc];B[lc];W[gc];B[pe];W[qe];B[pf];W[qg];B[pg];W[rg]TR[lc]
C[
djna C: I think that you need to explain the conclusion. Is this good for W? 

Personally
I would try to avoid this result as B - my thickness is pretty ueless, the
marked stone is too close. Therefore the marked stone is not an obvious move
in the first place. A counter pincer might be an alternative.]
))
(;W[de]C[andre:
White might lose connection with upper right's corner if play here but in
return he may attack lower left corner and seperate black's stones

djna C: I find it hard to be sure what conclusion these variations demonstrate.

Seems to me that there are so many other possible results that it's almost impossible to evaluate their worth.

I think it's down to W to have a plan to substantiate his original move .

My
approach to commenting the original move would  be show why W's approach
is not usual. In effect it becomes a reducing move against the corner and
can't easily become a viable group or make territory. So W has to be very
flexible to make it work. Very abstruse ideas]
(;B[od]
(;W[pf])
(;W[oc];B[nc];W[pc];B[md]
(;W[do])
(;W[qf];B[ic];W[do];B[eo];W[en];B[fo];W[dp];B[eq];W[dm];B[jq]
;W[qo];B[pq];W[op];B[oq];W[np];B[mq];W[pj]
(;B[ee];W[ef];B[fe];W[dd];B[ec];W[dg])
(;B[ce];W[cf];B[cd]
(;W[dg];B[ee])
(;W[df]TR[pe][ph][dj][pn]C[Now black must invade. The triangle marks the points black may attack]
)))))
(;B[oc];W[od];B[nd];W[oe];B[pc];W[qc];B[mc];W[qj];B[cn];W[pp]
;B[mq];W[fd];B[fc];W[gc]C[Lots of joseki variations at this point, choose the one most suited to your purpose]
)
(;B[nc])
(;B[qp]))
(;W[pq]C[Honinbo's style of opening, using komoku for fast territory and fast development]

(;B[cf];W[do]
(;B[eo])
(;B[fp])
(;B[co];W[cn];B[cp];W[dm];B[en];W[dn];B[ep];W[ci];B[jq];W[qn]
;B[oc]))
(;B[dj]C[Risky move, too greedy]))
(;W[fd];B[fc];W[gc];B[ed];W[fe];B[fb];W[gb];B[qp];W[ee];B[de]
;W[df];B[ef];W[ce];B[dd];W[cg];B[dg];W[cf];B[eg];W[bc];B[cb]
;W[bj];B[cm];W[dj];B[gg];W[he]))
