(;FF[4]GM[1]SZ[19]ST[2]CA[UTF-8]AP[SGFC:1.14]

GN[BAxelrod-chriscyr-20030906.sgf]
PB[chris cyr (chriscyr)]
BR[22k]
PW[Ben Axelrod (BAxelrod)]
WR[24k]
KM[6.5]
DT[2003-07-21,09-06]
PC[Dragon Go Server: http://www.dragongoserver.net]
RE[B+44.00]
RU[Japanese]
GC[Game ID: 28989]

C[Thanks for reviewing our game!

Ben is White

Chris is Black

xxc : i'll do the review going on with the game and discover it stone by stone ... enjoy :)
i follow the main game and point var like that in comment ... (36v1) = stone 36 var 1 ... hope it's easier to follow.
also use short for side, up, left, ... UL = upper left corner ... LS = lower side (center) and so on ...

Dave: How strange to be reviewing the review. Clearly you have worked hard on commenting this game - you have done much...

Perhaps too much. I think that the commentary would have been better to have been less and more to the point. Rather than pointing out alternatives for many moves, making comments only on the most important moves would have been better. Sometimes it is also helpful just to indicate that a particular sequence is not correct rather than talking about each move of the sequence.

Less can be more sometimes...];B[dp]C[xxc : q16 ... but not so important

Dave: I assume this is referring to the next move.];W[qd]C[Dave: I see nothing wrong with this, but perhaps you have some set openings which you like to play. If you want to introduce an openning to the players, thats fine, but you should indicate that, saying "Here is an opening that I like to play".]
;B[dc];W[qo]C[xxc : can't say for this one ... the only thing i know it's that it may leads difficult path ... and ...
i do not like this move, sort of bad feeling i can't explain.
second move on the 3rd line RS, and ... not well balanced ! 2 W stones seems too near

but it's not so important right now

Dave: Its not a typical opening, but I think its playable...]

(;B[jc]TR[jp][op][pq]C[xxc : seems biger LS

Dave: Enclosing corner at C15 also an option. I agree, W D10 or thereabouts is too nice.]
;W[jp]C[xxc : looks better now for W :)];B[od]C[Chris:  I decided to approach at this point.  My other option was to play d10, but I saw that Ben would probably play around R10.  I wanted to take the fight to white and strike first.

xxc : it's ok ... but if you whant that ... perhaps start with this one (5V1)

Dave: I still think D10 is better. If you want to fight, do it later :)]

(;W[pc]SQ[ci][di][qi][qj]C[Chris:  I was glad Ben decided to play for the corner rather than the side.  I decided that I would let him have it and try to build outside influence for myself.

xxc : mmm ... perhaps B can also tenuki and take advance elsewhere ... it may be miai (equal) one for B, one for W ... LS bigger i think :)

it's not the good way for white ... seems better towards BR stone (7v1)

Dave: This white response is unconventional. The variant details the typical joseki. White needs to get sente to invade left.]
;B[oc]
(;W[qj]C[Chris:  This looked like a loose enough move to allow me to invade.

xxc : you are right, but not now ... LS is the place to play now for rather peacefull game ... or LR for fight
US is already strong ... invading now can lead to weak this side ... better to expend it latter and then threat to invade ... i think :)

perhaps you do not speak of invasion ... but just threat the W corner ... let's see :)

Dave: This was a poor move by white. The joseki typically has white playing at S14 or R14. R10 is too close to R5 to be efficient at this point (5 lines is best). Black will invade underneather R5 and white's wall will be too close to R10.]
;B[qf]C[Ben: I think the last 3 moves by black was a good approach by chris.  He let me live in the corner, but it is rather small and the group is isolated.

xxc : right :) R10 is too far form R16 :(     (9v1)

now it is difficult ... and W will spend moves to live ... the only way i think is getting out at Q16, but it's hard to read it out !
W may be ok to let the corner ... take RS in big way and threaten to invade US
really not easy to play :)

Dave: This is why the Joseki is what it is :)];W[eq]C[xxc : mmm one move to far (R10) ... and this one is too near :(

it's a choice ... but i do not think W can let UR

Dave: I agree. UR is urgent. Black S17, for example, more or less kills the corner, forcing white to run in unfavorable circumstances.

Also E3 is a non-standard approach. B D3 is too easy for black. See variant.]

(;B[np]C[Chris:  I approached from too far here.

xxc : mmm ... B&W let to much for later !

here B let D4 alone, it may be dangerous ... i think B can choose a simplest way here and strenghten D4

Dave: Agreed.];W[pq]C[Chris:  I now understand the advice "If your opponent plays on the 3-5 point, take the 3-4 point".

xxc : :)
just push B outside ... and then strenghten both side];B[on]
C[Dave: What is Black's plan here? This helps white by giving him a group to attack. He will build up his groups while attacking.]
;W[ce]C[xxc : an other unfinished patern :(

W have to put presure on this B BR floating group ... now B can attack R10 and then the UR

try to see where your moves leads ... C15 can't be sente here, B can answer and put presure on this stone ... (17v1)

Dave: Agreed. You can tenuki when doing so gains you more benefit than continuing. Here, black does not have to answer and can settle his bottom right group. Settling this group is bigger than a move following around C15.]

(;B[cd]
(;W[ch]C[xxc : i do not think it's a good idea to let C15

Dave: Why not play normaly here? See variant.];B[ck]C[xxc : too far :(

Dave: Black would be far better off playing D3 now, and then C7 after white's response, or continuing as in previous variation. Once that base is secure, the attack can commence. This is big territorially as well.]

(;W[cq]C[Ben: should i have extended one more stone to C10 instead of playing here? (see variation)

Chris:  This looked to me as if I had peeped and the peep had gone unanswered.  I decided to push and start a fight.]
;B[dq]
(;W[cp]C[Ben: i think D2 would have been better.  It was probably silly of me to go for the corner. (see variation)

Chris:  I was surprised by this, D2 would have let Ben connect underneath.

Dave: I think we are all agreed that D2 would have been far better.]
;B[dr]C[Chris: This turned one group into two.

Dave: This is disaster for white.];W[ep]C[xxc : this one have nothing to do with the corner ... W have to choose ...]
;B[do];W[co];B[cn]
(;W[cr]
(;B[bo]C[Chris:  My goal was to turn this into a rectangle six or bulky five.

Dave: Yes, but this makes B4 Sente. Let me try a variation...]
;W[bp];B[an]
(;W[ap]C[Ben: I wonder if i had played A2 instead, could i have made life?  (see variations)

Chris:  That was the vital point.

Dave: It appears the group is alive, but really, even if it had lived White's position is hopelessly damaged.]
;B[ar];W[br];B[aq]C[Chris:  A1 seems to be a ko that could give life. (see var.)  It might have been beneficial to play somewhere else at this point and save the potential for a ko, rather than settling the corner.

xxc : white will have to play it rather soon, else B kill, a ko with no threat (at the end of the game for exemple) ... and W is dead]

(;W[cs];B[as]C[xxc : dead A1 is the only way

look at the result
B get a strong group now facing BS and LS ... W have a weak group on each side.

Dave: Hmm...What about the cut at D6? See variations. I see no way out for Black.]

(;W[bs]C[xxc : W lose a stone ... keep it for ko threat];B[ds]
C[xxc : B also lose a stone here.];W[pm]C[xxc : white should have play this right after P6

to put presure on this 2 stones, better from K4 now.

Dave: Yes, that group needs help];B[pn]C[xxc : mmm ... B should strenghten his group ... while threatening BS W group
(40v1)

Dave: This peep only strengthens W, does not help Black.];W[qn]
;B[nq];W[lq]C[Ben: I don't think this was a very good move.  What about E15, Q15, R13, M5, C10 ...

Chris:  I disagree.  This move got right in the way of my iron pillar.

xxc : W have to get space for his bottom group ...

you found it difficult because the order of the moves is wrong.
at the begin of the game each let stones without support while it was still easy to get space for free ... now groups are all over the bord, and each one interact with the others ... giving help to one will endenger an other one, but there is no choice no

Dave: This move was proper for white. It helps his weak group and attacks the black group which now has nowhere to make eyespace. The iron pillar was not good because it didn't gain eyespace for black because of this response. Black is very heavy now.]
;B[nr]C[Dave: Black needs to move out, not spend time destroying territory. White could not connect underneath before this.]
;W[qg]C[Dave: This strengthens black's weak stone, via contact. When black defends it will attack the upper corner. This is bad...]
;B[pg];W[qh];B[pe]C[Chris:  This looks like I backed off.  Maybe S14 would have been better now.

xxc : S14 still possible :)

here B just get a choice, give a way out for W UR at S14 but with a big counterpart ... C15 for exemple :)]
;W[rf];B[re]C[Ben: That was a good move by Chris.  I don't remember if i knew at the time i had to sacrifice my stone or not.

xxc : why ?
W have R15 no ?

Dave: Agreed. R15 works. B Q15 should have been at Q14 to really split white.]
;W[rd];B[rg];W[rh];B[sg]C[Dave: Just take it. Eliminate Aji.]
;W[sh]C[xxc : keep it for later S14 can still be used :)];B[sf]
;W[sd]
(;B[pf]C[Dave: This black move does not need to be done now. Black might be able to kill the corner instead. See variation.]
;W[dj]TR[ee]C[Dave: Triangled move does the job better. Attacks upper side.]
;B[eo];W[fo];B[fn];W[fp];B[fm]TR[el][gn];W[ho]TR[nl][lo]C[xxc : time to get out with UR group for B]
;B[lr]C[xxc : this may help W];W[kr];B[ls];W[ks];B[mq]TR[nl]
[ln]C[xxc : out now :)];W[lp];B[hm]TR[mm]C[chris:  I left the corner to soon.  I should have made the play at n1.

xxc : N1 ?

H11 is from the wrong side :(];W[ln]
(;B[lm]C[xxc : too late, this will end with a difficult fight ... and B can have this stone in a better way i think (75v1)]
;W[mm];B[mn];W[nn];B[nm];W[mo];B[ml];W[nl];B[mn]C[Ben: This corner gets real interesting.]
;W[no];B[pr]C[Ben: Ko threat / trying to make life

Chris:  n2 would have made life.  P5 might have been stronger.

xxc : no it's ok B had to extend ... no eyes with N2, N1 perhaps, but W have P2]
;W[qr];B[ps];W[ms]C[Ben: ko threat

xxc: ??? killing move no ?];B[mr];W[ns]C[Ben: I extended so that I occupied O1, a vital point for him to make life.

Dave: Black can live. See variation.]
(;B[os];W[oq]C[Ben: This is the other vital point];B[op];W[oo]
TR[pp]C[Ben: Now i have to stop him from escaping

no need to cut ... there is no more eyes with the 2 stones]
;B[qq];W[rq];B[fd];W[om]C[xxc : it's only 2 stones :)

Dave: Yes this is silly at this point in the game.];B[pp]
(;W[qp]C[Ben: I was very tempted to play at Q5 but i think it would have given Chris life. (see variation)

xxc : it's ok like that

Dave: This was correct. He is giving you a stone.]
(;B[ld]C[Ben: Now black has a very strong presence on the board.

xxc : right ...

Dave: Better to attack weak white group on left.]
(;W[mm]C[xxc : only 2 stones ... and W can use this possible move to expand (102v1)]
;B[km];W[mk];B[ll];W[lk]TR[ce][cf][ch][dj][gj]C[xxc : it's enough ... the game now is about the LW group]
;B[mg]TR[bd];W[oh];B[og];W[mh];B[fj]C[xxc : good

Dave: Attack shown in variant is better, but this isn't bad.]
;W[cj];B[jj];W[kh];B[kg];W[kj];B[kk]TR[jk];W[ji]C[Chris:  M10?

xxc : mmm ... no];B[jk];W[ki];B[ph];W[pi];B[nh]C[Ben: Durring the game i remember knowing that this was going to get ugly.]
;W[oi];B[ni];W[nj];B[mi];W[mj]
(;B[kn]TR[cf][dk]C[Ben: Why didn't black take the stone?

Chris:  I wanted to cut off any arm white built here.  So I wasn't so concerned with the one stone.  I thought that if I pushed hard enough, I could have created a shortage of liberties.

xxc: only one stone !!!

Dave: Yeah! The past 15 moves have been about small stuff - black should be building a territory on top by attacking white on left.]
;W[ko]
(;B[ii];W[lh];B[lg];W[li];B[ng]C[xxc : B can let

Dave: Too small at this point.];W[ih];B[hi];W[jg];B[jf];W[if]
;B[je];W[hh];B[jn]TR[km][in][kn]C[xxc : bad shape];W[jo];B[in]
;W[io];B[gh]TR[pc][qd][rd][sd][ce][ch][cj][dj]C[Chris:  I needed to live on both sides of the center group.  Then I just wanted to create a lot of false eyes for white.  I was really hoping for oiotoshi

xxc : all these groups are alive :)
the only 2 to take care / or attack are marked

Dave: Yes. What is the danger here? All this is the wrong direction.]
;W[gg];B[hf];W[hg];B[fg];W[he];B[gf];W[fh];B[ff]C[Ben: Smart sacrifice by black]
;W[gi];B[ie];W[ig]TR[eh][gj]C[xxc : only one stone];B[eh];W[fi]
C[Ben: I knew that this was going to be risky having a bunch of groups connected by false eyes.  I almost connected all the way to the other side though!]
;B[ei]C[Ben: I guess you have to keep more liberties at the front of your invasion than false eyes or you will have to sacrifice a group...]
;W[jh];B[gj];W[lj];B[gh];W[ok]C[xxc : no use i think];B[bd]
;W[be];B[de]TR[bk];W[df];B[ae];W[bf];B[bj];W[bi];B[bk]TR[dg]
;W[af];B[ad]TR[bg]
(;W[dg]C[Chris:  A12 would have definitely have been life.  I knew I would have Been surrounded on the outside, so I was just trying to keep two eyes from forming.]
;B[bg]C[Ben: another life and death problem where chris beat me.  How should I have played to save this group ?

xxc : isn't it dead ?];W[dh];B[di];W[ci];B[ag];W[cf];B[dk]C[xxc : B can let W going here ... only more dead stones no ?]
;W[er];B[dn]TR[es];W[ob];B[nb];W[pb];B[pd]C[Chris: I had just counted this so I wanted to seal up fast.]
;W[rb]C[Chris:  Probably a good safe cover.  I would have tried it after successfully killing two groups in similar situations.]
;B[nc];W[es];B[gn];W[go];B[hn];W[qe]C[Ben: This was a wasted move

xxc : T15 ... but not too usefull no];B[na];W[oa];B[rf];TW[pa]
[qa][ra][sa][qb][sb][qc][rc][sc][qi][ri][si][oj][pj][rj][sj]
[nk][pk][qk][rk][sk][ol][pl][ql][rl][sl][nm][qm][rm][sm][mn]
[on][pn][rn][sn][lo][po][ro][so][gp][hp][ip][kp][mp][np][op]
[pp][rp][sp][fq][gq][hq][iq][jq][kq][mq][nq][qq][sq][fr][gr]
[hr][ir][jr][lr][mr][nr][or][pr][rr][sr][fs][gs][hs][is][js]
[ls][ms][ns][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]TB[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][ga]
[ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][fb][gb][hb][ib]
[jb][kb][lb][mb][ac][bc][cc][ec][fc][gc][hc][ic][kc][lc][mc]
[dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][md][nd][be][ce][ee][fe][ge][he]
[ke][le][me][ne][oe][af][bf][cf][df][ef][kf][lf][mf][nf][of]
[cg][dg][eg][ah][bh][ch][dh][fh][ai][bi][ci][fi][gi][aj][cj]
[dj][ej][hj][ij][ak][ek][fk][gk][hk][ik][al][bl][cl][dl][el]
[fl][gl][hl][il][jl][kl][am][bm][cm][dm][em][gm][im][jm][bn]
[en][ao][co][ap][bp][cp][bq][cq][br][cr][bs][cs]C[White: 84 territories + 19 prisoners + 6.5 komi = 109.5
Black: 124 territories + 30 prisoners = 154
Result: B+44.5

Ben: Thanks for reviewing our game.  I was very dissapointed that i lost the lower left and upper left groups.  If i had kept them alive, the score would have been much closer.

Chris:  My major weakness was that I was led around the board a lot.  Also, I would start fights and then back off some.  My study of life and death really came in handy though.  Hopefully as I get stronger I can avoid groups like the bottom right.  I thought Ben had a much better sense of territory than I, and he carved himself a huge chunk of the board.  Thank you for the review.

xxc : i end the review, comments on the moves as they arise ... let it by side and cmae back to read the whole game to let you an overall comment :)

time for overall comment :)

for Ben first white here
try to take in account the whole bord ... i think you do not see relation between stones and groups
take time to look at all the board ... and play, add stones where it is needed ... thinking before what may arise
in LL playing form both side cost you the corner ... and in the center, near the end you push from a strong group, it cost you the LS group
try also to have a look at connect/cut ... it may be usefull to know how far you can extend

for Chris now black
mmm ... not really agree with your overall comment ! about territory at least
during battle in the LR you add 2 stones on the US ... F16 and M16 2 big moves
about your comment again ... i feel you play as the whole board is yours, it's wrong thinking ... losing a part can be really interesting if you can get bigger elsewhere :)
you just failed getting out (or live) with your BR group ... but in conterpart i think you play strong and solid moves :) ... and also use thikness, even if i do not think you can understand it's effect right now (myself do not still understand it's power !)

good game, a clean game for me ... with try (it's ok to try) ... but not "push too far" when it doesn't work :(
hope comments will help you (do not forget they may be wrong ... i'm only arround 10k everywhere ! i just give you my feeling of the game)

it end's here ... thank u

Dave: to xxc - I hope that my comments on your comments have been helpful. I think you should avoid commenting on things that you are unsure about; the opening is particularly tricky.

I added a few comments to the game of my own that I though would have been useful to include, and indicated where I agreed with your analysis.

To players at this level its good to point out big moves they could have made instead of the little moves. This is a big problem for them. They lose sight of the big picture. You did some of this, but the sheer mass of your commentary means that these important points may have been lost.

I would say also that this game was a hard one to comment on. It was complex, and suffered from some involved fighting that was sort of unnecessary and/or the result of poor previous play. Its hard to know what to say in these types of fights.

Thanks very much. Good luck with your Go.]N[RESULT])
(;W[ah];B[bg];W[cg];B[dg];W[dh];B[eg];W[di]))
(;B[lh];W[lj]))
(;B[lh];W[li]))
(;W[km];B[kl];W[mk];B[lk];W[mm]TR[mk][km]C[xxc : one step more toward the center for W

Dave: In my opinion, all this is smaller than a good attack on the white left group, say at B13...see variation.]
))
(;B[bg];W[be];B[bi];W[cg];B[bh];W[fg]C[Dave: White has no base. Black will continue attacking.]
;B[ef];W[eg];B[ie];W[hh]C[Dave: Etc. White will live inside or make it to the right edge. Either way, black will profit immensely from the stones played during the fight, and white will gain little.]
))
(;W[po];B[qp]C[xxc : alive];W[rp];B[or]C[Ben: Life.];W[rr]))
(;B[qq]
(;W[rq];B[oq];W[qp];B[os])
(;W[oq];B[pp];W[qp];B[rq];W[op];B[or];W[oo];B[rr])
(;W[pp];B[rq];W[or];B[oq])))
(;B[om];W[ol];B[pl];W[qm];B[nl];W[ok];B[lm]C[xxc : like this B is stronger to fight ... and can still undermine the white group from D1 !]
))
(;B[ob];W[pb];B[qb]C[Dave: What should white do? This is a very difficult life and death problem.]
;W[rb];B[ra];W[qc];B[pa]C[Ko?]))
(;W[dn]
(;B[cm];W[er];B[ds];W[eo]C[Dave: !])
(;B[eo];W[cm];B[bn];W[bm];B[dm];W[en]C[Dave:!])
(;B[dm];W[en];B[cm];W[eo])
(;B[en];W[dm];B[eo];W[cm];B[bn];W[bm])))
(;W[as];B[bs];W[cs];B[as];W[bq]
(;B[as];W[ar])
(;B[ar];W[as];B[bs];W[ao];B[bn];W[as])))
(;W[ar]
(;B[ap]
(;W[aq]
(;B[cs];W[bs]C[xxc : it's alive :)];B[ds];W[ao];B[bn];W[ap]
)
(;B[bs]C[xxc : dead]))
(;W[bs]C[xxc : alive no ?]))
(;B[cs];W[bs]C[xxc : alive];B[ds];W[ap];B[bq];W[br])
(;B[bs]C[xxc : dead])))
(;B[bn];W[bo]
(;B[br]C[xxc : mmm ...];W[bs];B[ao];W[ar];B[aq];W[bq];B[ap]
C[Alive.])
(;B[bs];W[cs];B[br];W[bq]C[Dave: This lives.])))
(;W[bn]C[xxc : perhaps like that ?]))
(;W[dr];B[cr];W[er];B[cp]
(;W[br];B[bq];W[ep]C[I am not exactly sure how it would play out...]
)
(;W[bq];B[br]C[xxc : and then play elsewhere ... ko threat for latter :) ... or depending of what may arise arround C7]
)))
(;W[cj]C[xxc : no ... i do not think this is good if you want to fight ... make a fist before :)
(20v3)]
(;B[dj];W[bj];B[dq];W[fo])
(;B[dk]C[xxc : this may help B]))
(;W[cn]SQ[ce][ch][jp][eq]C[xxc : here W can start a hard figh, but it may be dangerous for him because of 2 weak groups ...]
))
(;W[de];B[fd];W[ci]C[This W formation is strong. Invading in the middle of it, even with a black stone at or around C8 C9 it will still do well.]
))
(;B[ed]C[xxc : W have to add an other stone, B really start to get a big US, and get sente back]
))
(;B[ep];W[fq];B[di]C[xxc : and now ?

O4 still possible ... and W also have to play UR !!! it's not really alive for me :(
i do not think W will have time to invade B moyo

Dave: This variant is also possible. I like securing the corner better, but perhaps this is bigger.]
)
(;B[dq];W[ep];B[eo];W[fo];B[fn];W[go];B[en]C[Dave: Black is building territory and influence while white is cramped and contained.]
))
(;W[qf]C[xxc : and now just wait B :) ... UR is safe now]
(;B[op];W[pl]C[xxc : B again to chose, but W may ends sente]
)
(;B[qj];W[op];B[qm]C[xxc : W to play :)])))
(;W[pf]LB[mc:1][qk:2]C[xxc : might be dangerous for B ... W1 latter ... and big for W arround 2

i do not think B can let P16]))
(;B[od];W[oc];B[nc];W[pc];B[nd];W[qf];B[id]SQ[dc][ci][dp]C[xxc : better i think ... white is low on the RS ... and J10 is 4th line :) ... it's consistent with marked "chinese" opening ... points form D17 on the side, influence from D4 to fight BS ... and a trap waiting W invade at C15
it's white to play, he may enter LS i think know, and B can then attack

Dave: This is better.]))
